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This was no emotional, short term thing. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). We are not monolithic. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Craig Keener 25. If the Bible is Gods Word, and we are capable of understanding it, where else can we go to answer the deeper questions except to ourselves? In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). 9. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. Im sure there are believers in every venue. The theology is weak. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Resistance is futile.. List of Non-Calvinist Theologians - Laikos Theologos 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. In time, becoming a stronger branch. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. It seems to me that JeffS and Craig (over at SSB) understand that point and are processing it beautifully. Reformed. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. My Comment was Deleted Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. This short paper contains a list of common-sense and biblical arguments and counter-arguments against Calvinism and predestination. I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. * Okay, end of sermon. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. There wasnt so much in your face going on. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. We know that some of you disagree with us. Im aware of his molecule statement. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. Since Jeff S is a nice Calvinist, may I continue to be a mean one? @ Daisy: I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. [1] [2] I honestly dont know.) (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. Im talking about TULIP. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. I am not the smartest person in the world and I know that what seems logical to me can, in fact, be wrong . They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. I. Howard Marshall 28. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. is far removed from anything I, or any other Calvinist I know, believes. I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. Groovy, man. The Bible says they are. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. They simply describe the regular, normal way in which God manages or governs his universe. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. Ill have to look that one up. So when people try to argue logical conclusions of my beliefs, I tend to get upset if they arent conclusions that I arrive at. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. After all, you could be wrong. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. 1550-1616), who was not. Glad to have someone who gets my background! Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: Never once did I hear the word Calvin. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. * Okay, end of sermon. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. Ive tried to suss out how a good, all powerful God can exist at the same time as evil, and I just dont have an answer. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. I am a Christian. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. The way total depravity was explained to me (via a G. I. Williamson commentary on one of the Westminster Catechisms, cant remember if it was longer or shorter) was with the example of a glass of water. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). God sends rain on the just and the unjust. The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. Calvinism Jesse Morrell. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. Ultimately, they could be reading an interpretation of an interpretation, adding their own along the way. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? Of course you are. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. I had found the light. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. Top Arminian based commentary on the book of Romans Youd be shocked! If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. I can see why many walk away . We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. We are. And thanks for your honest answers. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose.
